Curse

Golgotha · Nov 09, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Imbalanced and broken gameplay.

I again ask, what cost is Shadow Form imposing on YOUR game? Are you using SF? It's not as if they have PvE monsters that chain skills for perma-SF, and even then it'd be easy to bypass. It's also not causing any hysteria in PvP.

So again, how is it affecting YOUR gameplay?

Golgotha · Nov 09, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Ill explain it to you. You confuse farming with the SF issue.
You wanna farm the hell out of tengus for feathers , undeads for orr emblems or 55 fahranur or whatever ? fine , i dont care but when it comes to MISSIONS or ELITE ZONES that are supposed to be a challenge ( yes , THAT is a challenge , not trying to do a SC in 9 mins ) and someone has a "godmode" button ( skill combo , call it whatever ) .... that challenge becomes a zone where X ppl farm whatever.

Let me put this clear , dont be mistaken , there are haters , farmers , and ppl that just see things from the outside and see it all clear. SF is broken and it affects the entire balance of the game when it comes to endgame playing. No matter what you do or what you think , that is an undeniable truth so if someone answers "no" to the OP question , that someone is clueless about GW.

If your "challenges" are searching for ways to farm X , then youll be pleased because right now , that "challenge" doesnt exist pal , lets be serious .

SC's will occur either way. The speed will undoubtedly change, but to what degree we don't know. Will people then complain about Spell Breaker? As that will undoubtedly be the next main farming skill if a SF nerf were to occur. I'm all for them buffing elite zones against SF -- the UW changes were a welcome change of pace and challenge. If the elite areas are the only things you are all worried about, why nerf a skill across the board? That doesn't make sense.

Sparda · Nov 09, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I haven't been here for a while now but i'll give my 2 cents about this.
I can recall that linsey said in an interview why it takes a while to nerf them.
She said i quote "Skills like ursan and SF allow people to play places where the normaly can't come"
So i think the skill of current players is just low. So in my eyes nerf all those skills who allow noobs to come in places where the don't belong.

Tenebrae · Nov 09, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

SC's will occur either way. The speed will undoubtedly change, but to what degree we don't know. Will people then complain about Spell Breaker? As that will undoubtedly be the next main farming skill if a SF nerf were to occur.

I didnt say that SF is the only broken skill/combo , thats another matter. What happens before of a possible SF nerf ..... ill tell you , i dont really care but circumstances doesnt chance the fact that SF => SC. Maybe is lack of knowledge , feel free to pm me with some SC that has no SF in the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

I'm all for them buffing elite zones against SF -- the UW changes were a welcome change of pace and challenge. If the elite areas are the only things you are all worried about, why nerf a skill across the board? That doesn't make sense.

See ? that is bad , a bad bad bad reeeeeeeeally bad idea. Its like "hey , my dog cant stand cats ... lets kill all cats in the world ! problem solved " . If you wanna nerf the runner , NERF the runner , dont BLOCK the way because blocking the way or making it impressively difficult will create more problems and solve none.

Im not worried about elite areas only , im worried about endgame , that involves a lot of things ...... most of them broken because of SF. Dont be mistaken , is not a matter of "i want my cookie back" or "this is like that because i say so" but ignoring a problem because it doesnt bother me or you doesnt make it dissappear.

Martin Alvito · Nov 09, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

How so? Perhaps you're just butthurt that you can't stand to see other people have some fun?

Production creates externalities. The game doesn't have sufficient quality ecto/armbrace sinks to keep a lid on prices if it's easy to make currency. Make it easy to create ectos, and prices on scarce stuff get stupid.

Make it easy to create ectos, and skill > time becomes time > skill. That's great if you're sixteen to early twenties and made of time. It's fail if you're not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

About economy, ectos have always been 6-7k/ea. SF didn't change that.

So explain why a clean mini Kanaxai that ran 2000 ectos in 2006 (pre-dupe) will now run fifty times that. Besides, you're just dead wrong on pricing. The standard before the recent expectation of an SF nerf was 22 to 23 for 100k, around 4350-4500 each. They've been as low as 27 to 28 for 100k (height of the Chaos Plains farm), and as high as 33k or so before the trader reset back in 2005 when the trader code was bad.

Bryant Again · Nov 09, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

So again, how is it affecting YOUR gameplay?

It doesn't.

It doesn't affect my game any more than a mode that allowed you to play PvE in a WWII tank. Or making it where the Power Rangers came down from the sky to help you complete an area. Or ANet officially implementing an optional UI mode where you saw fully exposed breasts everywhere, or a language setting that put "shit" in between every word.

So obviously, "how it affects my gameplay" is completely not the point.

qvtkc · Nov 10, 2009, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

I again ask, what cost is Shadow Form imposing on YOUR game? Are you using SF? It's not as if they have PvE monsters that chain skills for perma-SF, and even then it'd be easy to bypass. It's also not causing any hysteria in PvP.

So again, how is it affecting YOUR gameplay?

Wow. I'm sorry for your parents.

What is playing a game well about? It's about making optimal choices leading to winning the game. If those choices are fun to make, victory will be entertaining both to achieve and to play for, which combines to make what is known as a fun game.

I have an example for you. If Word of Healing is better than Healing Breeze, then if the choice is between those two, you'd be stupid to choose Healing Breeze. The problem is, what if Word of Healing didn't just heal, but made you invulnerable? It would still be better than Breeze, but it would be so good that it makes the game boring since it's too easy. There's no challenge left, except meta-challenges like speedclearing some elite area one minute faster than some other team, or dumb shit like solo running some dungeon in 7 minutes, or even better, paying someone else to do it. Which is boring and not what GW is supposed to be about. But you'd still be stupid to choose Breeze.

And oh hey that's just what Shadow Form does to GW right now. It makes you choose between stupid and boring. Neither option makes for a fun game, as I explained above.

Here's where I know what you will say next.

What if you enjoy inferior skills? Yeah, there are people that like to intentionally or not play crappy skills or builds, using stupid tactics and generally be retarded. I don't.

What if you want to make your own challenge by intentionally picking bad builds? Well, apart from the obvious difficulty of finding a team for anything that isn't the Zaishen quest of the day, that challenge should be provided by the game, not by yourself. That is what balanced gameplay is all about.

reaper with no name · Nov 10, 2009, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

I again ask, what cost is Shadow Form imposing on YOUR game? Are you using SF? It's not as if they have PvE monsters that chain skills for perma-SF, and even then it'd be easy to bypass. It's also not causing any hysteria in PvP.

So again, how is it affecting YOUR gameplay?

It forces me to either use SF or intentionally play a crappy build. I don't know about you, but I and many other players don't like doing what amounts to putting mending on our bar. But we also don't like being invulnerable.

Also, how can you ignore the fact that SF, for all intents and purposes, removes most of the content from the game? The monsters might as well not exist, since they can't kill you. The other classes might as well not exist, since there's no reason to play them unless you want to suck. And every other elite skill might as well not exist, since there's no reason to use them unless you want to suck.

Hailey Anne · Nov 10, 2009, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

i just dont get one thing.
IF so many ppl want to SF to be nerfed.. how come i dont see them in GW?

Because guru is NOT the majority of players.
its the minority. This is just where you see the whines about SF because this is where the dictators like to show up.
SF in no way affects how anyone else plays.
People say oh well I cant get in groups if im not a sin. Well get a guild.
Well my guild only does SCs with sins. get a better guild.
There are obviously players that want to do balanced teams. Like here in this thread. Get together go do your balanced teams and let others play how they want.

Cuilan · Nov 10, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hailey Anne

SF in no way affects how anyone else plays.

Then explain why the profession that I wish to play with is not allowed in any FoW, SoO, or UW group? So basically, I must grind with a character and build I can't stand repeatedly. That's not playing.

Let players play the game.

own age myname · Nov 10, 2009, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Then explain why the profession that I wish to play with is not allowed in any FoW, SoO, or UW group? So basically, I must grind with a character and build I can't stand repeatedly. That's not playing.

Let players play the game.

Find a guild? If your guild doesn't want to do things with you, you are in the wrong guild, sorry.

Cuilan · Nov 10, 2009, 11:59 PM // 23:59

My guild does things with me, but not speed clears. Sorry you didn't understand that.

Golgotha · Nov 11, 2009, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

It forces me to either use SF or intentionally play a crappy build. I don't know about you, but I and many other players don't like doing what amounts to putting mending on our bar. But we also don't like being invulnerable.

Also, how can you ignore the fact that SF, for all intents and purposes, removes most of the content from the game? The monsters might as well not exist, since they can't kill you. The other classes might as well not exist, since there's no reason to play them unless you want to suck. And every other elite skill might as well not exist, since there's no reason to use them unless you want to suck.

So from all that you said, if they were to nerf SF you're stuck with a crappy build? And once said nerf goes into effect that every single team will be garbage? That is either a huge exaggeration or it completely doesn't make sense.. I'll let you decide on that one.

I don't know about you, but when I play my Monk the monsters exist and are very difficult in elite areas. You see, as I'm not using it, it doesn't affect me. Not in the slightest. Outside of farming, running and SC's SF isn't very good. As most players just play the PvE side of things, it really isn't that great of a skill in normal team play. As I said before, it is the design of elite areas that causes gimmick builds/teams to thrive. Fix the areas and you fix the problem. There should not be that much of a discrepancy between a balanced team and a SC.. ever. And I think that both are too far an extreme, both ways.

Everyone begging for a nerf might as well start a guild or arrange SF-free runs. Guess what? You get what you want. It'd be just the same as if it was nerfed. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It doesn't.

That was the conclusion I've come to as well.

Let's be honest here, SF isn't the problem. When they buffed SF back to the state it currently is in, people weren't up in arms about it as they are now. It simply wasn't that much of a concern. Before it was simply solo farmers running UW for ectos, so it was no big deal but once it became the necessary build for UW PUG's, then it became an issue (much like UB). The real issue is simply the UWSC and it's effect on the precious ecto currency exchange. That is it.

UWSC is the main target and SF is taking the brunt of the force.

Golgotha · Nov 11, 2009, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Wow. I'm sorry for your parents.

I know this will be difficult for you, but don't be an idiot.

If you'd like to continue the debate, act like your daily duties don't include Hall Monitor.

reaper with no name · Nov 11, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

So from all that you said, if they were to nerf SF you're stuck with a crappy build? And once said nerf goes into effect that every single team will be garbage? That is either a huge exaggeration or it completely doesn't make sense.. I'll let you decide on that one.

I don't know about you, but when I play my Monk the monsters exist and are very difficult in elite areas. You see, as I'm not using it, it doesn't affect me. Not in the slightest. Outside of farming, running and SC's SF isn't very good. As most players just play the PvE side of things, it really isn't that great of a skill in normal team play. As I said before, it is the design of elite areas that causes gimmick builds/teams to thrive. Fix the areas and you fix the problem. There should not be that much of a discrepancy between a balanced team and a SC.. ever. And I think that both are too far an extreme, both ways.

Everyone begging for a nerf might as well start a guild or arrange SF-free runs. Guess what? You get what you want. It'd be just the same as if it was nerfed. Period.

That was the conclusion I've come to as well.

Let's be honest here, SF isn't the problem. When they buffed SF back to the state it currently is in, people weren't up in arms about it as they are now. It simply wasn't that much of a concern. Before it was simply solo farmers running UW for ectos, so it was no big deal but once it became the necessary build for UW PUG's, then it became an issue (much like UB). The real issue is simply the UWSC and it's effect on the precious ecto currency exchange. That is it.

UWSC is the main target and SF is taking the brunt of the force.

"Good" is a relative term. Currently, SF is the only build that is "good", because everything else in the game is crap compared to it. If you're not using SF, you might as well be running a nuker build as a warrior.

If SF is nerfed, then what's "good" changes. Builds that used to be crap would then become more useful, because, again, everything that isn't SF is useless right now, whether people admit it or not.

Also, UWSC is only the beginning. Though it is the place where SF is most prominent, it is by no means the limit to what it can do. In fact, there is no limit. Really, there is nothing in the game that cannot be done by SF. In the rare cases that 1 SF sin is not enough, bring 4 and I guarantee you will succeed. Even Anet admits that SF is being abused for everything now.

And stop pretending SF doesn't affect me. It affects me the same way Ursan affected people: you run it or you don't get to play.

You're also ignoring the fact that it is GODMODE. You are telling me that what amounts to removing nearly every mechanic in the game (from monsters to classes to skills to health) is a good thing? Godmode is bad. I can't see how you can argue that it isn't.

Oh, and if it's really ok for godmode to exist in the game, then why are only sins allowed to have it?

I'll tell you what. Go to Sardelac and suggest that every class be allowed to maintain SF permanently. Unless and until you do that, you are a hypocrite. So, come back after you've done that and then we can have a real discussion.

Reformed · Nov 11, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If SF is nerfed, then what's "good" changes. Builds that used to be crap would then become more useful, because, again, everything that isn't SF is useless right now, whether people admit it or not.

And stop pretending SF doesn't affect me. It affects me the same way Ursan affected people: you run it or you don't get to play.

Claiming that SF is so widespread that "you don't get to play" is a bunch of hysteria and quite frankly, complete bs. If you expect to play for the high end shineys then you need to either develop some flexibility and run the meta or join a guild complementary to your playstyle. This is how it's always been with high end content even before SC runs got popular and there are years of precedent. If your main is a Dervish in PvE then that is part of your problem. There are better options for your role in the party, nerfing Assassins won't change that.

reaper with no name · Nov 11, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Actually, I wasn't speaking from my own experience there, for precisely that reason (grumble grumble, anet hates my class, grumble grumble).

Bryant Again · Nov 11, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

That was the conclusion I've come to as well.

I hope you're not taking what I've said out of context?

Point is, nothing added to the game will affect how you play it unless you use it - which means "how it affects 'your' game" is not the point here, since you can not take anything considered "harmful" - armor with tits, skills with swear words in them, weapons with swastikas - .

So don't start spewing the "it doesn't affect your game" bullcrap, since you can use that in defense of anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Let's be honest here, SF isn't the problem. When they buffed SF back to the state it currently is in, people weren't up in arms about it as they are now. It simply wasn't that much of a concern. Before it was simply solo farmers running UW for ectos, so it was no big deal but once it became the necessary build for UW PUG's, then it became an issue (much like UB). The real issue is simply the UWSC and it's effect on the precious ecto currency exchange. That is it.

UWSC is the main target and SF is taking the brunt of the force.

Many people are short-sighted here. A lot say that SF is the "damnation" of GW and that fixing it will fix everything. SF is just part of the tip of the iceberg that is GW's problems.

upier · Nov 11, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

It forces me to either use SF or intentionally play a crappy build. I don't know about you, but I and many other players don't like doing what amounts to putting mending on our bar. But we also don't like being invulnerable.

Also, how can you ignore the fact that SF, for all intents and purposes, removes most of the content from the game? The monsters might as well not exist, since they can't kill you. The other classes might as well not exist, since there's no reason to play them unless you want to suck. And every other elite skill might as well not exist, since there's no reason to use them unless you want to suck.

The players that strive to play the most efficient build do not oppose SF.
It would be insane to do so.

If the goal on the other hand is to have "fun" then there is no problem with not running SF. The game isn't balanced around SF, meaning that content would only be doable with SF, which means you can run things that you find fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Production creates externalities. The game doesn't have sufficient quality ecto/armbrace sinks to keep a lid on prices if it's easy to make currency. Make it easy to create ectos, and prices on scarce stuff get stupid.

Make it easy to create ectos, and skill > time becomes time > skill. That's great if you're sixteen to early twenties and made of time. It's fail if you're not.

The high end market still works the way it should.
It excludes players that do not have enough money to participate in it.

The only difference is how the money that is used to participate in that market is earned. And that is irrelevant to the market itself.

Everyone else benefits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Then explain why the profession that I wish to play with is not allowed in any FoW, SoO, or UW group? So basically, I must grind with a character and build I can't stand repeatedly. That's not playing.

Let players play the game.

Those teams aren't playing teams.
Those are farming teams.
That's why you guys don't team up.

Or to put it in simpler terms:
The guys are asking for a SS necro, while you are offering an Ineptitude mesmer.
You aren't what they are looking for.

qvtkc · Nov 11, 2009, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

I know this will be difficult for you, but don't be an idiot.

If you'd like to continue the debate, act like your daily duties don't include Hall Monitor.

Can't reply to straight arguments, huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

As I said before, it is the design of elite areas that causes gimmick builds/teams to thrive. Fix the areas and you fix the problem. There should not be that much of a discrepancy between a balanced team and a SC.. ever. And I think that both are too far an extreme, both ways.

As if SF was only used in elite areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Everyone begging for a nerf might as well start a guild or arrange SF-free runs. Guess what? You get what you want. It'd be just the same as if it was nerfed. Period.

Why would I want to cut my own legs off? For so many things, SF gives such an advantage over any other option, you'd be a fool to not use it.